> we ask them to stop testing advanced mathematical problems on proprietary models.
Maybe I'm alone on this, but for some reason these sorts of requests strike me as akin to gatekeeping how someone should breathe air. It's math... the numbers and symbols are just out there in the platonic realm available for anyone to do as they like with them. It's patently absurd to request other people to stop.
Ensuring credit where credit is due? That's fine. If your model incorporates the efforts of many others, then it's reasonable to request acknowledgement of everyone who contributed (even indirectly). But that's not what the request states — presumably their ask subsumes any advanced ML model, including those that weren't trained on a giant corpus of text.
But on one hand there are labs that pushes tens of millions $ to mine for publicity, and on one hand mostly underfunded researchers trying to improve general understanding. Big ai may seriously harm math and when Pr value diminishes down nobody is there to keep pushing.
“researchers trying to improve general understanding”
Pretty sure AI will do better for that.. mathematicians need to be centaurs like the rest of us and stop rhetoric that is going to make existing math centaurs feel like they might get math-cancelled
I don't see why mathematicians should be protected from AI anymore than any other profession. It's either everybody or nobody, not fair on the face of it otherwise.
Mathematician was never really a "profession" like the others. It doesn't pay well and is largely confined to academia. If you're really good and want to get paid, you don't do the kinds of problems AI have been taking a crack at. You go to a quant firm or some tech company where this kinda math actually matters once in a blue moon
Air is there for all to breathe. It's a more-or-less fungible, free resource for all to use and the consumption of it is a basic requirement for life.
The AI companies, in contrast are using vast financial, human and compute resources to train and operate specialised models that are not available to the public. The advisory group's job is to give non-binding advice on how they can use this privately owned technology in a responsible manner that avoids doing unnecessary harm to the mathematical community. To call that gatekeeping misses the point entirely.
The very first paragraph of the article says (emphasis mine):
> At present, some frontier AI labs are testing advanced mathematical problems on proprietary models that remain inaccessible to the broader scientific community. Our recommendations are formulated with this practical context in mind.
The Navier Stokes proof came from an internal model that AFAIK still has not been released even in a limited way to scientists, let alone to the general public. Publicly available models are not what these mathematicians are talking about.
> gatekeeping how someone should breathe air. It's math... the numbers and symbols are just out there in the platonic realm available for anyone to do as they like with them. It's patently absurd to request other people to stop.
The chemical compounds of all kinds are also out there, available for anyone to do as they like with them. Say, mixing ammonium chlorate with peroxide, why not? Or potassium permanganate with powdered aluminum. It's patently absurd to request other people to stop.
> The chemical compounds of all kinds are also out there,
1. Lol but they're literally not
2. A sample of chemical compound and a piece of math don't share literally any ontological qualities - you might as well have tried to make a comparison between math and nude pictures of the President
> you might as well have tried to make a comparison between math and nude pictures of the President.
The latter is but a very large number, interpreted in a particular way. Have you heard of "illegal numbers"? Yeah, apparently they exist. That damn state, treading on literally everything that humans might do as if it's any of its business.
Mostly pretty straight forward. The idea that proofs be desloppified, attribute existing literature properly, and published somewhere expediently where it can be commented on, with artifacts for verification, is all very uncontroversial stuff.
I think the spicy take is definitely this stance that longstanding mathematical problems shouldn't be used as benchmarks for (specifically proprietary) models. Stated right at the very top.
The justification is pretty clear.
> The use of proprietary internal models by AI labs to do mathematical research risks creating a two-tier system where labs outrun the rest of the field, effectively alienating the mathematical community from its own discipline.
It is all fun and games (for non mathematicians) when mathematicians can't compete with AI labs but I think the more dangerous direction is when this starts being true for the rest of everything. For example cybersecurity or whatnot. Hence why I think Anthropics whole stance of being completely against open anything is actually *extremely* dangerous due to the centralization of power which they completely ignore as a risk factor.
The most discussable thing in this is certainly the idea that labs should fund mathematicians to do expositions.
> One of our principles is that AI labs have a responsibility to provide support, including funding, for the development of human understanding of the AI mathematical output that they release.
Obviously this directionally sounds like the role of mathematicians would be shifting towards interpreting AI results instead of making proofs. I'm not sure who would should really be billed for that. Plus how would you decide who gets the grant?
An interesting thing is that by stating that that the lab that dropped the result provide the funding, this is *directly* proposing an example of taxing AI labs for displacing knowledge workers.
> The use of proprietary internal models by AI labs to do mathematical research risks creating a two-tier system where labs outrun the rest of the field
This is literally the economic bet of the big labs in the broader economy. You use your relative advantage to front run or outcompete.
I'm not sure this argument will work given it is essentially an argument against the thesis the big labs use to justify their valuations.
I saw an interview (in French) of Cédric Villani, speaking on behalf of him and other Fiels medalists, who said that in order to advance mathematics we need three things:
- ideas
- students
- problems
Basically, students to bring original ideas to try and solve existing problems and this generates new ideas and possibly new problems for new students to try and solve with new ideas and so on.
And he continued to say that the issue with LLMs in mathematics, is that he's afraid they could run out of problems, and so students wouldn't bother trying, and this could hurt understanding of mathematics as a whole.
It's totally not my field so I'm not sure what to think of it but it seems important
Or mathematicial progress helps advance society and AI mathematical velocity doesn't offset certain blows to human mathematical velocity yet, so we get to lose progress for the good of an AI company's advertisement.
Mathematical progress does (quite obviously, on the whole) help advance humanity, so progress is a good thing. The problem is that defunding mathematicians and handing over control to AI and the companies that create them will cause the subject to stagnate. Sure, for a while we might get progress on existing questions using (perhaps quite novel) combinations of existing techniques, but, so far, given the character of the results we’ve seen, there’s no indication that it will continue indefinitely. Even if it did, what would be the point? Huge textbooks full of work no one can understand or benefit from?
One possible analogy is that humans work to add new points to the space of mathematical knowledge, and AI then fleshes this out to attain the ‘convex hull’ of these points. Essentially, humans ‘invent’ the definitions and pose the questions and AI does the grunt work as well as some creative exploitation of known results and tools to bring down all the low-hanging fruit that follows (important note: what appears to be non-low-hanging fruit to us may in fact be technically low hanging once AI is involved; we saw this for example with the Jacobian conjecture). This seems to be the current situation, and to argue that humans are fully replaced it is necessary to argue that AI is adding points outside the convex hull of human mathematics. A sufficient example would be a first-principles AI proof using alien techniques, and this we haven’t seen so far.
The mathematics-chess comparison is, to put it bluntly, nonsense. I see where it comes from, but, as absolutely anyone with any research experience will tell you, mathematics is orders of magnitude (and this really isn’t strong enough) more open-ended, and doesn’t consist of a game one is seeking to ‘win’. The goal is understanding itself.
I agree. Its so strange to see an institution externalising their specific problems. If they have a problem, they should adapt and fix it amongst themselves.
For every important match problem solved by AI, without mathematicians we wouldn't know about the existence and importance of the problem.
Famous mathematical conjectures are social constructs, formed by decades of even centuries of attention given to them by members of the math community. Without it, the danger is that future math "progress" will be reduced to generating tables of Lean statements and a probable/unprovable bit generated by AI.
Could just be a sampling bias. Humanity had something like 3000 years to make famous conjectures, whereas AI mathematicians have been around for a month or so. Give them time, I'm sure they'll start formulating highly consequential unsolved problems soon enough.
> AI mathematicians have been around for a month or so.
LLMs have been around for years, and they're explicitly trained on the entire history of human mathematics (without which they'd be unable to do anything).
In a sense, how do you know whether the problem your AI has just solved is important? A simple proxy is to just check whether humans have thought it's important.
That's also why famous open problems are a good benchmark or proxy: you don't need to convince the rest of the world that the problem your lab's new AI just solved is actually useful or hard.
If youre going to spend 10 million dollars on 10000 agents trying to solve some important maths problem I think it's reasonable to ask for some grants to help digest whatever they came up with.
Or you could hire mathematicians and do it in-house, but I guarantee you grants to PhD students are cheaper than silicon value salaries.
Many wrongly assume actual problem solving can be automated in an LLM with more data. Rather... LLM are good at finding similar context in isomorphic plagiarized works, with little actual "AI" in anthropomorphized marketing. Likely also effective at targeting individuals and organizations as hapless intelligence targets. =3
While applying, I looked at the current SoTA, (briefly) read through some of the papers, and realized that I am very far away from understanding them.
Understanding one of these proofs is the work of several months, years or lifetimes depending on whether or not something clicks. It requires a kind of stamina that I quite frankly don't have, but I would like to develop.
If the mathaton's organizers accept my team, I realized that I would spend the next few years working through the result.
So why apply to the Mathaton?
"Many years ago the great British explorer George Mallory, who was to die on Mount Everest, was asked why did he want to climb it. He said, 'Because it is there.'
Well, [theoretical math] is there, and we're going to climb it, and [topology] and [number theory] are there, and new hopes for knowledge and peace are there. And, therefore, as we set sail we ask God's blessing on the [~~most hazardous and dangerous and greatest adventure~~] on which [we have] ever embarked."
More seriously, I applied because I was hoping to get access to the models without the veil. I don't think people realize just how big the gap is between what exists behind the scenes at these entities, and what we get out here.
And it's frustrating. Because I think it's within the rights of frontier labs to decide whether or not to sell access to a product, but the labs aren't just doing that. They're trying to thumb the scale to make sure that none of us ever get access to these models at peak performance. Ever.
And I think humanity is worse off for that. I am worse off for that.
I have studied the shape and structure of historical technological revolutions (and I've written about it), and usually the world doesn't realize how big of a big deal the big deal is because the big deal is often flawed, broken, and under-delivers. In the short term.
In the long term...? The world changed in the past few months. I think mathematics is one small part of that.
For most of human history, higher mathematics would have been inaccessible to me, and other outsiders, no matter how well heeled. Mathematics is, or rather was, a living discipline that existed piecemeal in a handful of minds across the world. These people's time was finite and valuable. To just meet them, you'd have to jump through hoops, and spend years proving yourself.
There is no price for an hour of tutoring from Terence Tao. But now, with AI? You can have an entity with the capabilities of Terry Tao help you understand the subtleties of math.
AI has changed what mathematics is. And every prominent mathematician seems to know it. They feel like mathematics has been devalued, and in some ways it has. Mathematics has gone from being a living discipline kept alive by a chosen few to a wellspring everyone can sip from. For the first time in human existence, learning and accessing higher mathematics doesn't involve jumping through hoops and knowing the right people. You can just ask.
I can just ask.
Except I can't. Because that capability is being gate kept. And I want to know. I want to climb the mountain.
"There is no royal road to Geometry" - Euclid. Mathematical knowledge isn't from tutoring but doing. And no one is against the AI helping explain the tricky parts to help you practice. Rather it's about dumping a giant bunch of low quality text with some Lean claiming a big result is done.
There are subtleties to mathematics that aren't easy to understand from the written page alone. It's why it's a living medium.
For example, as we're talking about LLMs... why not, there are ways to reason about vector spaces that weren't intuitive for me to understand. It's something that required talking things out with a friend who is a practising mathematician (albeit in training).
I am not smart enough to reconstruct all of mathematics on my own from scratches on paper alone. That back and forth is necessary. And it's something that you couldn't have "bought" for cutting edge math at any price a few months before this point in time. Because it exists in the minds of people and it needs lots of back and forths with those people.
It's why LLM proofs can be slop on paper. A proof that no one can check or understand is not but scratches on paper. BUT LLMs are also the solution to the problem they create. The machines that can generate proofs are also machines that can help us understand them.
The living medium can now be represented and scaled inside of a machine. I can now sit down at an airport and have that discussion. I think that's transformative for our species.
Just wait until BCI and/or fast Pavlovian conditioning force fed by agents into human learners.
I've been vibe coding my own SRS software that is vastly superior to my learning style than Anki, and I know I'm just scratching the surface of accelerated learning. Who knows where this goes.
MRI and glucose injections with agent-tutor steering and millisecond feedback to learning?
We might be able to Matrix "I Know Kung-Fu" things into brains one day.
OpenAI should be allowed to produce whatever it wants but it just can't claim that it has actually solved without the due process like peer review. If for example OpenAI solves a new conjecture, OpenAI should be free to publish it in their blog or arxiv in whatever way they desire. It can be slop, it can be non-slop. No one should police it.
Mathematicians are free to use it or discard it. They shouldn't externalise their concerns and restrict labs.
Mathematics is seen today as the noblest and most aristocratic of professions. Turns out, AI disrupts it because access to capital/compute now decides the results. Mathematicians don't like this corruption - understandable.
Its like guild of accountants opposing the calculator and require a responsible release. haha
Maybe I'm alone on this, but for some reason these sorts of requests strike me as akin to gatekeeping how someone should breathe air. It's math... the numbers and symbols are just out there in the platonic realm available for anyone to do as they like with them. It's patently absurd to request other people to stop.
Ensuring credit where credit is due? That's fine. If your model incorporates the efforts of many others, then it's reasonable to request acknowledgement of everyone who contributed (even indirectly). But that's not what the request states — presumably their ask subsumes any advanced ML model, including those that weren't trained on a giant corpus of text.
Pretty sure AI will do better for that.. mathematicians need to be centaurs like the rest of us and stop rhetoric that is going to make existing math centaurs feel like they might get math-cancelled
Air is there for all to breathe. It's a more-or-less fungible, free resource for all to use and the consumption of it is a basic requirement for life.
The AI companies, in contrast are using vast financial, human and compute resources to train and operate specialised models that are not available to the public. The advisory group's job is to give non-binding advice on how they can use this privately owned technology in a responsible manner that avoids doing unnecessary harm to the mathematical community. To call that gatekeeping misses the point entirely.
> At present, some frontier AI labs are testing advanced mathematical problems on proprietary models that remain inaccessible to the broader scientific community. Our recommendations are formulated with this practical context in mind.
The Navier Stokes proof came from an internal model that AFAIK still has not been released even in a limited way to scientists, let alone to the general public. Publicly available models are not what these mathematicians are talking about.
The chemical compounds of all kinds are also out there, available for anyone to do as they like with them. Say, mixing ammonium chlorate with peroxide, why not? Or potassium permanganate with powdered aluminum. It's patently absurd to request other people to stop.
Mix together whatever you want, and then you can fight the feds when they show up to enforce their monopoly.
1. Lol but they're literally not
2. A sample of chemical compound and a piece of math don't share literally any ontological qualities - you might as well have tried to make a comparison between math and nude pictures of the President
> you might as well have tried to make a comparison between math and nude pictures of the President.
The latter is but a very large number, interpreted in a particular way. Have you heard of "illegal numbers"? Yeah, apparently they exist. That damn state, treading on literally everything that humans might do as if it's any of its business.
I think the spicy take is definitely this stance that longstanding mathematical problems shouldn't be used as benchmarks for (specifically proprietary) models. Stated right at the very top.
The justification is pretty clear.
> The use of proprietary internal models by AI labs to do mathematical research risks creating a two-tier system where labs outrun the rest of the field, effectively alienating the mathematical community from its own discipline.
It is all fun and games (for non mathematicians) when mathematicians can't compete with AI labs but I think the more dangerous direction is when this starts being true for the rest of everything. For example cybersecurity or whatnot. Hence why I think Anthropics whole stance of being completely against open anything is actually *extremely* dangerous due to the centralization of power which they completely ignore as a risk factor.
The most discussable thing in this is certainly the idea that labs should fund mathematicians to do expositions.
> One of our principles is that AI labs have a responsibility to provide support, including funding, for the development of human understanding of the AI mathematical output that they release.
Obviously this directionally sounds like the role of mathematicians would be shifting towards interpreting AI results instead of making proofs. I'm not sure who would should really be billed for that. Plus how would you decide who gets the grant?
An interesting thing is that by stating that that the lab that dropped the result provide the funding, this is *directly* proposing an example of taxing AI labs for displacing knowledge workers.
This is literally the economic bet of the big labs in the broader economy. You use your relative advantage to front run or outcompete.
I'm not sure this argument will work given it is essentially an argument against the thesis the big labs use to justify their valuations.
- ideas
- students
- problems
Basically, students to bring original ideas to try and solve existing problems and this generates new ideas and possibly new problems for new students to try and solve with new ideas and so on.
And he continued to say that the issue with LLMs in mathematics, is that he's afraid they could run out of problems, and so students wouldn't bother trying, and this could hurt understanding of mathematics as a whole.
It's totally not my field so I'm not sure what to think of it but it seems important
Or mathematics is more like a hobby, and while ai may spoil their fun, they need to move on like chess and go players.
Mathematical progress does (quite obviously, on the whole) help advance humanity, so progress is a good thing. The problem is that defunding mathematicians and handing over control to AI and the companies that create them will cause the subject to stagnate. Sure, for a while we might get progress on existing questions using (perhaps quite novel) combinations of existing techniques, but, so far, given the character of the results we’ve seen, there’s no indication that it will continue indefinitely. Even if it did, what would be the point? Huge textbooks full of work no one can understand or benefit from?
One possible analogy is that humans work to add new points to the space of mathematical knowledge, and AI then fleshes this out to attain the ‘convex hull’ of these points. Essentially, humans ‘invent’ the definitions and pose the questions and AI does the grunt work as well as some creative exploitation of known results and tools to bring down all the low-hanging fruit that follows (important note: what appears to be non-low-hanging fruit to us may in fact be technically low hanging once AI is involved; we saw this for example with the Jacobian conjecture). This seems to be the current situation, and to argue that humans are fully replaced it is necessary to argue that AI is adding points outside the convex hull of human mathematics. A sufficient example would be a first-principles AI proof using alien techniques, and this we haven’t seen so far.
The mathematics-chess comparison is, to put it bluntly, nonsense. I see where it comes from, but, as absolutely anyone with any research experience will tell you, mathematics is orders of magnitude (and this really isn’t strong enough) more open-ended, and doesn’t consist of a game one is seeking to ‘win’. The goal is understanding itself.
Famous mathematical conjectures are social constructs, formed by decades of even centuries of attention given to them by members of the math community. Without it, the danger is that future math "progress" will be reduced to generating tables of Lean statements and a probable/unprovable bit generated by AI.
LLMs have been around for years, and they're explicitly trained on the entire history of human mathematics (without which they'd be unable to do anything).
In a sense, how do you know whether the problem your AI has just solved is important? A simple proxy is to just check whether humans have thought it's important.
That's also why famous open problems are a good benchmark or proxy: you don't need to convince the rest of the world that the problem your lab's new AI just solved is actually useful or hard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbwv5wHQoj0
Everything is WFFs all the way down
While applying, I looked at the current SoTA, (briefly) read through some of the papers, and realized that I am very far away from understanding them.
Understanding one of these proofs is the work of several months, years or lifetimes depending on whether or not something clicks. It requires a kind of stamina that I quite frankly don't have, but I would like to develop.
If the mathaton's organizers accept my team, I realized that I would spend the next few years working through the result.
So why apply to the Mathaton?
"Many years ago the great British explorer George Mallory, who was to die on Mount Everest, was asked why did he want to climb it. He said, 'Because it is there.'
Well, [theoretical math] is there, and we're going to climb it, and [topology] and [number theory] are there, and new hopes for knowledge and peace are there. And, therefore, as we set sail we ask God's blessing on the [~~most hazardous and dangerous and greatest adventure~~] on which [we have] ever embarked."
More seriously, I applied because I was hoping to get access to the models without the veil. I don't think people realize just how big the gap is between what exists behind the scenes at these entities, and what we get out here.
And it's frustrating. Because I think it's within the rights of frontier labs to decide whether or not to sell access to a product, but the labs aren't just doing that. They're trying to thumb the scale to make sure that none of us ever get access to these models at peak performance. Ever.
And I think humanity is worse off for that. I am worse off for that.
I have studied the shape and structure of historical technological revolutions (and I've written about it), and usually the world doesn't realize how big of a big deal the big deal is because the big deal is often flawed, broken, and under-delivers. In the short term.
In the long term...? The world changed in the past few months. I think mathematics is one small part of that.
For most of human history, higher mathematics would have been inaccessible to me, and other outsiders, no matter how well heeled. Mathematics is, or rather was, a living discipline that existed piecemeal in a handful of minds across the world. These people's time was finite and valuable. To just meet them, you'd have to jump through hoops, and spend years proving yourself.
There is no price for an hour of tutoring from Terence Tao. But now, with AI? You can have an entity with the capabilities of Terry Tao help you understand the subtleties of math.
AI has changed what mathematics is. And every prominent mathematician seems to know it. They feel like mathematics has been devalued, and in some ways it has. Mathematics has gone from being a living discipline kept alive by a chosen few to a wellspring everyone can sip from. For the first time in human existence, learning and accessing higher mathematics doesn't involve jumping through hoops and knowing the right people. You can just ask.
I can just ask.
Except I can't. Because that capability is being gate kept. And I want to know. I want to climb the mountain.
There are subtleties to mathematics that aren't easy to understand from the written page alone. It's why it's a living medium.
For example, as we're talking about LLMs... why not, there are ways to reason about vector spaces that weren't intuitive for me to understand. It's something that required talking things out with a friend who is a practising mathematician (albeit in training).
I am not smart enough to reconstruct all of mathematics on my own from scratches on paper alone. That back and forth is necessary. And it's something that you couldn't have "bought" for cutting edge math at any price a few months before this point in time. Because it exists in the minds of people and it needs lots of back and forths with those people.
It's why LLM proofs can be slop on paper. A proof that no one can check or understand is not but scratches on paper. BUT LLMs are also the solution to the problem they create. The machines that can generate proofs are also machines that can help us understand them.
The living medium can now be represented and scaled inside of a machine. I can now sit down at an airport and have that discussion. I think that's transformative for our species.
Just wait until BCI and/or fast Pavlovian conditioning force fed by agents into human learners.
I've been vibe coding my own SRS software that is vastly superior to my learning style than Anki, and I know I'm just scratching the surface of accelerated learning. Who knows where this goes.
MRI and glucose injections with agent-tutor steering and millisecond feedback to learning?
We might be able to Matrix "I Know Kung-Fu" things into brains one day.
In what way are these "gatekeepers" stopping you asking an LLM questions about maths?
OpenAI should be allowed to produce whatever it wants but it just can't claim that it has actually solved without the due process like peer review. If for example OpenAI solves a new conjecture, OpenAI should be free to publish it in their blog or arxiv in whatever way they desire. It can be slop, it can be non-slop. No one should police it.
Mathematicians are free to use it or discard it. They shouldn't externalise their concerns and restrict labs.
Mathematics is seen today as the noblest and most aristocratic of professions. Turns out, AI disrupts it because access to capital/compute now decides the results. Mathematicians don't like this corruption - understandable.
Its like guild of accountants opposing the calculator and require a responsible release. haha